Professional Speakers Association Convention revisited

Sometimes in life you are torn between being in two places at the same time. Why do two events that you want to go to have to be on the same day?

This happened a couple of weeks ago. Regular followers of my blog will know that thanks to my late partner Clive Gott, I had grown to love his rugby league team – Leeds Rhinos. He used to inspire the younger players every year with several sessions and often encouraged them to decide their chosen goals - often this involved playing and winning in a cup final. With this in mind I had taken Dom to Wembley back in July to see them in the Carnegie Cup final. Wigan snatched it from us!

Leeds then went onto rise through the play-offs to be in the final at Old Trafford on October 8th. Should I go?

I was so keen to but it clashed with the Professional Speakers Association Conference at the Hilton hotel in Coventry. It was at this event four years ago that Clive and I had first met. By the following year we had become ‘an item’ and as they say, the rest is history.

Since Clive died many of our speaker colleagues and friends have offered me so much support. It just felt right to be amongst them to thank them but also to be reminded of how I had felt at that first conference – I ‘had come home to kindred spirits’!

So instead of my Rhinos t-shirt I packed my favourite dress from Monsoon (that Clive had taken off a shop dummy for me!) and went to Coventry.

Once in my room I got ready watching the first half of the match on the television. I dread to think what other residents thought of the shouts coming from my room!

I was torn to wander down at half time and then concentrated on fellow speakers instead. The warmth and affection that greeted me was so very touching and much appreciated. I have been feeling much stronger since the middle of September. I do feel that I have turned a corner after the date we would have been coming back from our cruise. The knowledge that my diary is now ‘my’ events and not ‘his/ours’ is a step forward. It still hurts, but perhaps not as much. I still hear him saying ‘it’s happened – deal with it’.

There were some speakers from across the world – some I had met before, for example when I went to the National Speakers Association convention in New York in August 2008 and at other PSA events. Mixing with international speakers is exciting! One, Frank Furness, had been a great inspiration to Clive during his early days as a speaker. I had never met him until this dinner and he spoke kindly of Clive.It was also good to reconnect with Terry Brock from Florida and many others.

Just before we were due to dine our good friend and amazing speaker Geoff Ramm took me to one side to warn me that he would be saying a few words in Clive’s honour after the meal. He didn’t want to upset me. I appreciated the tip off but was delighted that Clive would be ‘there’. I sat with two other 'northern' speakers and good friends  – Paul McGee and Richard McCann.

Clive has left me with some good guys!

I felt really pleased that I had made the decision to come, especially as Rhinos were losing at half time! I was relaxed and soaked up the banter of the evening. 

There were some awards given then Geoff took to the platform to speak about Clive and how he had impacted and encouraged him in his career. None of us pretend that Clive was ‘holier than thou’! He had often ruffled feathers at the PSA but basically because he was so passionate about speaking and spoke his truth. Hearing Geoff speak so beautifully about him had a massive impact on me. I realised I was shaking! I felt so proud of Clive; I felt the respect and sorrow in the room for his passing; I felt I had to respond ….

I am well aware that as I spontaneously took to the ‘international’ stage, some people were worried! Would I be an emotional wreck? Would I go on and on and need dragging off?

I was handed a microphone and simply recalled how Clive and I had met at this event for the first time 4 years ago. The following year he had asked me to spend the rest of his life with him – and I did. I went on to say that Clive always said that what happens to you in life became another seminar story and as such, he has added to mine. I thanked the PSA and its members for their respects paid to Clive and to the support they have given me since he died.

http://www.aydinstone.com/index.html

With Clive’s final message of making each day count, I ended my spontaneous talk. I have often been inspired to present from that platform – I never, ever thought that losing Clive would be the reason I first took it. I was then stunned to receive a standing ovation! I stepped down but was prompted back to take my applause. Wow!

I didn’t cry but I know I was shaking. I hoped I had done us both proud.

A text I got the next day from a speaker I have every respect for read,
‘Elaine, you were not merely brilliant on Saturday night. You were utterly magnificent. There were some people in the room who had never even heard of Clive .. who were mesmerised by the memory of someone they soon wished they HAD known.’ 

Then I cried!

The rest of the evening was fun catching up with people and having a dance! However, the night was made by the fact Leeds Rhinos HAD won the final! Clive would have been so thrilled! Very well done guys!

See more photos here

A few of us stayed up late having a drink and a chat in the lounge area and after a few hours sleep I decided to join an international audience to watch the Rugby world cup. The funny thing was that one of the Australian guys noted that watching the match with speakers resulted in more comments on the commentary than on the play itself! 

I joined in the seminars later that morning and realised that I do want to return to be a member of the PSA as I had initially learnt so much from my attendance and there are still many friends there who I was truly pleased to see.Thank you Paul du Toit for a copy of your book. Last time we had met had been at a dinner for Global Speakers held in the United Nations building in New York. My speaking engagement in Amsterdam earlier this year was cancelled due to industrial action. Perhaps the PSA convention has rekindled my desire to be an international speaker again?

My place at next years convention is already booked.

If you are an aspiring or already a speaker, I recommend you find a meeting in your area and go along. Who knows what it may lead to?

So next time you are caught between deciding on two events I suggest that you ask the following questions...
1. Will you be missed if you don't go (Leeds Rhinos clearly did well without me!!!)
2. What is likely to have the greatest impact for you and for others?
3. What are the pros and cons for both?
4. Which do you feel duty-bound to go to and which do you really want to go to?
5. Are you prepared to live with your decision or will you then live in regret?

On this occasion, although I was disappointed not to be at Old Trafford, I am very pleased I went to PSA - on the other hand I could have stayed in and watched Strictly and X-factor!

I feel that one of the many lessons I have learnt since Clive died is the importance of making an effort and doing something. It would be easier to just stay in and fester; wallow and curse. As you know, I HAVE done that at times, yet I like to feel that Clive would be saying 'You go Princess'.

That first PSA convention I went to Clive presented at, his 'walk-on' music was this ...



How very, very true.

We miss you.

If you would like to hear my new keynote please come along to The Midland Hotel in Bradford on 7th November. Details are here. Please share!

Elaine x
www.hanzak.com

I am okay!

I am getting messages asking if I am okay because I haven't posted for a few weeks. I really appreciate your concerns.

I am doing well - truth is I have been busy with a new role as a coach and my time has been focused on that along with the other events the last few weeks!

There are posts waiting to be finished - more soon!

Elaine x


www.hanzak.com

My new movies!

Last Monday, 3rd October,  Ann Girling and I met up with my friends Sue and James from the Hampshire Hypnotherapy centre in London. I had suggested that they may be interested in joining us as experts at Greatvine.
It was the hottest Monday in October in London on record! It was great to catch up with the dynamic team at Greatvine and after our meeting we all took an iced drink and sat on the grass at Lincoln's Inn Fields! It seemed barmy to be so balmy!
As I was enroute to London I had been called by BBC Radio London and spoke on their Drivetime programme about my story of postnatal illness. A new report had appeared in the daily newspapers by 4children stating that 35,000 mothers suffer in silence with PND and the media were responding! Hooray! I spoke at length to Eddie Nestor and was able to mention the Joanne (Joe) Bingley Memorial Foundation and Greatvine for means of support and information for those affected.

I have just got my new videos as part of my Greatvine profile - here is my introductory one.



And here is the second one on tips

I would be delighted if you would leave a comment on YouTube for them!

Meanwhile my friend Grace Sharrock was in demand by This Morning. Grace also suffered puerperal psychosis but went on to have her gorgeous twins last year. A model of hope!
https://www.facebook.com/ThisMorning/posts/10150351171917122
She was a natural being interviewed. I felt very proud of her. Her book 'Saving Grace' is fab.

Meanwhile Ann and I returned to Bracknell to deliver our workshops on postnatal illness to professionals and mothers linked to Children's Centres there. We had been last year and it was awesome to hear of the positive changes and improvements that we had inspired last year! They already want us to return next year. It is brilliant that the diary is filling up! It is great to know that just spending a few hours with key people in educating about postnatal illness what an impact it can have. We both felt very humbled and privileged to have empowered people to make such a positive difference on others.

I just hope the current media interest remains as it will help many who currently are suffering in silence to know they are not alone.



Have an amazing day!

Elaine x

www.hanzak.com

World Mental Health Day - what will you do?

Back on October 10th 1999 I did a single spontaneous gesture which has subsequently changed the direction of my life and impacted on others! It was the day I attended a service at church to recognise World Mental Health Day. At that service I felt the urge to briefly share my story of postnatal illness. From that it lead to two more presentations and inspired me to write my book 'Eyes without Sparkle - a journey through postnatal illness'.

Publication was on 17th January 2005 which resulted in appearances on national television, media and subsequently a speaking career which has taken me to New York , Sydney and Dubai. I haven't missed my teaching profession.  My marriage did not survive the changes though in myself (which my ex-husband says began the day I spoke at that service). Perhaps it was then my purpose was ignited?

Due to my story being told I am humbled by being able to report that I am aware of it being the hope that prevented two ladies from taking their own lives whilst suffering mental health problems following childbirth. On a daily basis I am told I inspire and give hope.

Along the way mental illness was the 'introduction' for my late partner Clive Gott and I being encouraged to work together. Even though he was 'Mr Action Man' Clive too had suffered a period of depression which had made him realise that it CAN and does happen to anyone - it is not only for those considered weak, pathetic, etc. - which had been his previous opinion. That business idea turned into an incredible romance which was brought to a sudden end when he died in February this year. Once again I found my emotional state in tatters but have 'survived' by accepting help, making better choices and connections and caring about myself and others.  I fully recognise how bereavement could have been a pathway to developing a depressive illness again.

It is quite incredible as I reflect on the last 12 years. How could I have known the outcome of that one speech? Is there a 'grand plan' that is mapped out for us? Would we want to know?

Over the last six years of my speaking and writing career, it is in the last one that it has begun to 'come together'. My contacts, knowledge, experience, etc. has found at home within The Joanne (Joe) Bingley Memorial Foundation. Joe took her own life last year 10 weeks after giving birth to the gorgeous Emily. Today the inquest into her death begins. My heart, soul and love goes to her widower Chris and the families and friends.

We are anxious that her death is not in vain and as a result the mental health care for pregnant and new mothers and their families will be directly improved as a result. I urge you to visit the website if you haven't already.

Mental illness does affect many people. There is still a stigma which we all must fight. My plea to you today is to make one single action to help reduce it. I am not expecting anything as life changing as my action turned out to be back in 1999, but perhaps you could share the Joanne (Joe) Bingley Memorial Foundation details to your contacts?

Perhaps you could look at the links and information around today?
e.g. World Mental Health Day
http://www.bps.org.uk/news/world-mental-health-day-2011
http://www.together-uk.org/

What can you do to reduce stigma and increase knowledge about mental health?

Together we CAN make a difference. Please do not suffer alone!




Elaine

www.hanzak.com

'Letting go'

• How many times do you put off the inevitable?
• What are you avoiding?
• What is stopping you from moving forward?

These were the questions I considered with respect to clearing Clive's clothes. It is now 7 months (31 weeks) since Clive died. Apart from re-decorating the master bedroom and moving the office into the smallest room (as we had planned) the house and garden are as he left it.

There have been many times I have found comfort in his clothes - wrapping the sleeves of a big coat around me; trying to smell for any last trace of him amongst his shirts; stroking the lapel of a business suit remembering the pride I felt seeing him on stage.




One of Clive's many expressions was 'let it go'. He often applied this to upsets, grievances and 'things'. We had sold many of our joint unwanted items last year to redecorate the lounge and had also bought new furniture and a big television with the proceeds. We had enjoyed finding, describing and selling our 'stuff' - the evening the sale was to end we'd get excited and tot up the amounts. He also cleared the house of many items of memorabilia with the belief that it was better to let someone else create new memories with them. Clive told me that all we really need is carried and remembered in our memory and heart.

In recent years he had also begun to be passionate about helping the homeless. So along with his sister, Lynn, we decided that he would rather his clothes went to them than just be hanging around - literally. As the autumn is upon us now seemed a good time. Putting items on Ebay would just break my heart even more. Knowing Clive he would rather a jumper of his kept a homeless man warm than anything else.

So Lynn and I set to. Boy was it hard. Each item took me down memory lane. T-shirts he wore on our cruise: scruffy stuff he wore in the garden or for decorating; shirts I had lovingly ironed for him; keep-fit gear he had sweated in! We put music on and bit by bit went through wardrobes, drawers and cupboards.

Several times I burst into tears. In some ways it seems like only yesterday he went. In others, it feels an age. Yet the fact is, he HAS gone. He won't be walking back in any time. He won't be sitting on the drive in his beloved car. He won't be around to give his bear hugs. He won't be singing or laughing for us to hear.

So what use are his clothes here? Each time I began to cry I pictured a homeless man smiling in receipt of some of his clothes. Maybe someone will be able to go for a job interview because there is a suit for him to wear? How life-changing would that be? How proud would Clive be? In the cold months ahead a man may be walking the streets with warm and cosy feet because he has Clive's socks and boots on.

Our pain was lessened at the comfort of making other people's lives easier and happier. Clive's purpose was to be a permanent inspiration to anyone and everyone who seeks it. I hope by sharing his clothes to others they may be inspired in some way.

I confess that I have kept a few things - his slippers included.

But generally it is all now packed up ready to go to their new owners.

On completion of one of the worst tasks I have ever done I actually feel a sense of progress, although my tummy was tied in knots. It doesn't mean I love him any less but I do feel we did what he would have wanted. That helped.

Also sharing the task with his sister who had known him all his life, was relevant, appropriate and MUCH appreciated.

Clive often spoke about creating space in your life. By clearing things out it enables you to move forward. This is an area I am still battling with but bit by bit as my career regrows with my confidence, I know the direction is up. I am excited to be the keynote speaker at Business Mums Unite conference in Nottingham next month, for example.

The task of clearing Clive's clothes is a good example of his theory, which he shared widely, about tackling challenges using belief, motivation and support.

In this instance I believed that Clive would have wanted his clothes to benefit the less fortunate. I believed in doing so it would ease my pain. I also believed that it is good to create a space in your life/environment as that provides the opportunity for renewal and growth.

My motivation was to help others especially those linked to the Emmaus charity, whose ball I attended recently.

The support came from Lynn. I could not have done it without her time, encouragement and strength. Likewise those who will support the next stages with it.

LETTING GO TAKES LOVE
To let go does not mean to stop caring,
it means I can't do it for someone else.
To let go is not to cut myself off,
it's the realization I can't control another.
To let go is not to enable,
but allow learning from natural consequences.
To let go is to admit powerlessness, which means
the outcome is not in my hands.
To let go is not to try to change or blame another,
it's to make the most of myself.
To let go is not to care for,
but to care about.
To let go is not to fix,
but to be supportive.
To let go is not to judge,
but to allow another to be a human being.
To let go is not to be in the middle arranging all the outcomes,
but to allow others to affect their destinies.
To let go is not to be protective,
it's to permit another to face reality.
To let go is not to deny,
but to accept.
To let go is not to nag, scold or argue,
but instead to search out my own shortcomings and correct them.
To let go is not to adjust everything to my desires,
but to take each day as it comes and cherish myself in it.
To let go is not to criticize or regulate anybody,
but to try to become what I dream I can be.
To let go is not to regret the past,
but to grow and live for the future.

To let go is to fear less and love more
and
To let go and to let God, is to find peace !
Remember: The time to love is short

Author unknown

So I ask again

• How many times do you put off the inevitable?
• What are you avoiding?
• What is stopping you from moving forward?
• What belief, motivation and support do you need to cross that gap?

Elaine x

www.hanzak.com

'It's hard seeing my little girl grow up without her Mum'

Regular readers know all about my link with the Joanne (Joe) Bingley Memorial Foundation. You will know that just over a year ago I was contacted by a friend of Joe's, Dinah, who asked if I could help improve services in the Huddersfield area. Joe had taken her own life a few weeks after having baby Emily. I met Chris, Joe's widower, and now in just over 12 months the charity is making national headlines.

This week Chris told his story in the Express. Read the article here.

When I first met Chris, although of course I was empathetic and sympathetic, it wasn't until I lost Clive that the true understanding of the pain of death hit me - big time. Yet in contrast I count myself lucky - no matter what anyone had done the day Clive's heart stopped it was 'his time'. There is no-one to blame. No remorse. Just loss of an incredible man, who continues to inspire. I don't have the delights of our baby growing up and him not being here.

This is yet another reason why fighting against the stigma, ignorance and lack of services of postnatal illness continues to be my purpose in life. Seeing the joy that my niece (born 4 days before Emily) has brought for her Mum and the rest of the family contrasts sharply with the hole left by Joe.

As a society we need to work together to ease the pain, suffering and ultimate loss of lives through this illness.



Please visit the Joanne (Joe) Bingley Memorial Foundation website to sign up for our newsletter and pass the link to anyone you know who is involved with young families.

Elaine x

www.hanzak.com

How good is your Customer Service?

This week has been a good example of customer service - brilliant and not!

Mum and I spent some time in London last Tuesday, the day after we'd seen Shayne Ward in Rock of Ages. I was still feeling good for the first time properly since I lost Clive! I then left Mum to get the train to Mansfield where I was meeting my friend and colleague Ann Girling for us to deliver one of our workshops on postnatal depression the next day.

Ann is in the final stages of completing her own book, 'Journey to Chocolate', which is fab! Her launch event is in Chester on the 11th November. Places are going fast - book your ticket here.

My first train was delayed which meant I missed my next two connections! At 8.30 pm I was tired and hungry on the platform at Nottingham and text Ann to say I'd get some sandwiches and for her to eat at our favourite Il Rosso in Mansfield without me! However, she was adamant that we deserved better and that she would still go to the restaurant and ask if they would keep the kitchen open until I arrived! She charmed the young man at Il Rosso and outstanding service was given as I had no sooner taken off my jacket than I had my delicious meal and glass of wine in front of me! Thank you Ann for insisting 'we were worth it' and thank you to Il Rosso for outstanding customer service. We shall be back!

• How often to do you give up a reward so quickly?
• What is the worst that can happen if you ask for help?
• Are you appreciative of that help?

The staff at Lakeside Point Travelodge were just as friendly as previous stays so next morning we emerged fresh to deliver our training.  We both thoroughly enjoyed the day and received many favourable comments. It is so rewarding to know that we can share our knowledge and experiences for others affected by postnatal illness. Please see our details for the workshop here and pass to anyone of relevance!

Ann drove us back to Cheshire and after a quick meal with my family, reluctantly, returned to an empty house. I was okay until I picked up the post to find my phone bill STILL in Clive's name. Why can they charge the bill to my bank account but despite months now of calls, emails, letters do they STILL get it wrong? The first couple of months can be excused but 7 months? I had even stopped my direct debit payment last month and informed them I would pay as soon as the bill was in my name. I don't think that is unreasonable, do you? Since then I had four more in Clive's name. That night it was the final straw. It was bad enough still to come back to our home where he would have been waiting with a big grin, a huge hug and a cup of tea for me. Instead I crumpled in a heap at the bottom of the stairs and howled, clutching the letter - in his name. To a huge corporate company it is 'just a name' - to me it is a reminder of a heart that stopped and another that got broken. 'Why can't they get it right?' I howled.

I picked myself up eventually (because I simply HAVE to) and just fell into bed.

Next morning I set to sorting out my presentation for that evening. I was speaking for a fundraising event for The Joanne (Joe) Bingley Memorial Foundation and the Alzheimers' Society, being organised by Huddersfield Pendragon Ladies Circle.  As my Grandma suffered from Alzheimer's I was able to add that in! I sorted my slides and still felt upset and drained. What would I advise others? Feel good factor! I rang Paula at Genesis who squeezed me in and did my hair for me. Perked me up no end!

One of my friends joined me and we drove to the venue. I was also thrilled as my parents and sister came to hear me. I was actually nervous for them to be in the audience! I will let Rachael, the Chair, describe the evening:-

It was really good to meet you finally on Thursday evening but it was even better hearing your talk!

Can I just say a massive thank you for coming to Kirkheaton Cricket Club and hosting a talk for us in aid of our chosen charities this year the Joe Bingley Memorial Foundation and the Alzheimer's Society.

I know most people would run a mile if you suggested listening for an hour and half on post natal depression Alzheimer's and bereavement but through out your talk you could have heard a pin drop - this is no mean feat when you have around 70 women in one room, not a single shush or tut had to be given!

There are lots of words I could use to describe your talk frank, brave, passionate, caring but I think what you leave every single person with is hope and that feeling of count your blessings no matter what you have gone through if you search your soul and look hard enough out of every single negative there will always be a positive. It may not be apparent right there and then but positive thinking will eventually conquer all.

I have had so much positive feed back and my hope for this talk was that if we could just help one person feel better we would have really achieved some thing, well I think we have helped more than one and so for that I thank you and look forward to hearing you talk again, Elaine you are a true inspiration.

With much appreciation

Rachael Smith

Chair

Huddersfield Pendragon Ladies Circle

That brought a big lump to my throat. Here is a link to a blog written by Kate who also attended. Such messages inspire me to continue so thank you ladies. It was also lovely to be reconnected with a lady who I had flown to Rio de Janeiro on a Virgin Vie holiday we had achieved a number of years ago! The flowers I received as a thank you from Sue Bradley were stunning.

The next evening I was invited to attend the 10th birthday celebration for Countersales Ltd, held at the Kings Chinese restaurant.  David and his team knew Clive and it is through my links with him that we have set up the successful support group for postnatally depressed mothers in Morley, Leeds. It is a bit unnerving to attend events on your own after losing a loved one but great thought had gone into the seating plan and I was surrounded by warm, friendly people and had a wonderful evening with delicious food! Thank you for asking me and I look forward to the next 10 years! The waiter showed outstanding customer service as by the end of the evening he knew and used all of our names! There were 30 of us - wow!

On Saturday morning I had a huge backlog of emails to attend to and logged on to discover I had been disconnected from broadband and my phone for not paying the bill! Aaargh! Several hours later, more tears and upset I was finally reconnected late in the afternoon. I explained time and time again why they had not been paid. In the end they put it back on and generously said they would not charge me for the reconnection! Meanwhile I had not only lost the day for working but was upset yet again! My mood plummeted.

My whirlwind of a week continued that night as I had been invited by a friend of Clive's, Juli, who has now become one of mine, to a ball! The venue was the wonderful Midland hotel in Bradford and it was for the Emmaus charity, which provides support for homeless people. The speaker was the incredible Terry Waite CBE. I was at the same school as Gary, the manager at The Midland, and we had also reconnected last year at the hotel where Clive spoke at an event for Bradfordnowhere.  Juli and I stayed the night. What great rooms (and no, I am not saying that just because I know Gary!). They have been refurbished to a high standard and every touch was thought of. The staff here also have excellent customer service and standards.

I had decided to wear the red dress I wore as bridesmaid for my sister a few years ago and had never worn it since. The staircases at the Midland are designed for a swishy dress so it had to be worn! At lunchtime, amid my Broadband crisis, I took it out of its cover to discover it had stains down it! Oh no! The first dry cleaners shook their head - they could have it ready by a week on Tuesday! Would Cinderella get to the ball?

Next was Johnson's the cleaners in Wetherby. I explained my dilemma and by 3 p.m. they phoned me (on my mobile!) to say it was ready for collection! Wow! I was very impressed and grateful. Meanwhile I had text Paula and one of her girls fluffed my hair up for me! I drove to The Midland feeling a bit anxious as it is a place I associate with Clive. A place we had said we'd go to a ball. A place where 'he was'.

Once settled in my room Juli and I had a drink and I got ready! The poor experiences of customer services had been overcome by others at the opposite end of the scale. This was the result!

I was so pleased that most of the people at the table were ladies so I didn't feel the odd one out. The company was excellent and so was the service and meal. You have a team to be proud of Gary. Terry gave a very powerful talk about his experiences and I began to realise even more that I have suffered in order to help others. Terry's captivity was dreadful but he has inspired and helped so many others. Of course a girl can't resist a photo ..

The band were called Vinyl Act and along with some of my fellow diners we had a great boogie! I felt so good just to move to the music. I felt close to Clive in that stunning ballroom because the first time I had been there was to hear him speak there. I knew he loved to watch me dance and I felt he was doing that. I also had a 'vision' because I too will be speaking in that room at an event just for me to speak on Monday 7th November - details to follow. So please put the date in your diaries for a 4 pm start.

More photos are here

Clive always wore a black suit and white shirt when he spoke. I also loved him in his DJ.

Everywhere I looked there were men in black and white. Yet I didn't feel sad. In fact I felt so alive. So grateful that for a few years Clive Gott and I had shared an amazing life. He taught me so much. I won't let it go to waste.

Some songs just were made to make you smile - as my red dress swished around my ankles, in a stunning setting surrounded by kind people, perhaps Hope is beginning to creep back into my life.



Thank you to all those who contributed to that 'high'.

What can you do to improve your actions on others? And who knows, it may just make a big difference to them.

Elaine x

www.hanzak.com